These are not complicated subjects, I made a living for 5 years at gunshows. There is no need for high capacity clips and assault weapons. Some congressman with some balls needs to introduce the Clinton assault weapon ban which expired under Bush NEXT WEEK. Then go from there with more regulation.

Snyder is a coward, so I am sure after today he wont sign that bill even though he probably promised Dick Devoss he would sign it.

An elementary school, I am sure the NRA will propose training 4 year olds to use automatic weapons so they can defend themselves next time a nut case with highcapacity clips and an automatic weapon walk into their KINDERGARTEN.

Howard you are a liar. You did not in fact make a living selling at gunshows. Clips load magazines Howard, you should know that. And nobody asks for "Assault Weapons" at gunshows either because that name was given by the left in order to deamonize military style semi-automatic fire arms. And in this case nobody used "clips", and automatic weapons. Crawl back under your rock with your lieing leftest agenda. This was a bad sad thing. Every teacher should have the right to carry concealed. And it should be mandatory that they atleast get training in case they feel the need to carry. Remember, these are areas that are supposed to be gun free. None of these nutjobs pay any atention to that law.

The detachable magazine is often controversially referred to as a clip.[1][2]

They dont have to ask for anything, they are laid out right there on the tables. They of course usually ask for them by name AK47 (Kalishnokov) and AR15 are the most sought after. They are assault weapons.

Joshua,
I agree this is not the time for an impassioned discussion on gun control. The issue as the article states on concealed weapons in schools and other public places is now a bill passed this week in a ver busy Lansing, and is on the Gov. desk to be signed.

Many of us were not aware it went through both houses so quickly. The saddenss of today should make us all ask the Gov. to slow down and let's take a second look. We have a lot at stake and politics should not rule this decision. Email the Gov. Today and request more time on this decision. Extra training with guns is not the answer to safety in our schools, daycares, and other public places. I am not against guns, I'm against the weak laws we have in governing their sale.

Joshua, Erin, Marianne... thanks for you thoughts -- I agree this is not an issue we need to debate today.

That is wrong we need to debate this issue right this minute. 5 YEAR OLDS do you understand? 5 YEAR OLDS.

Drop party lines? You're talking to ideologues. The corporatists and the religious zealots have joined forces, and they do what DeVos and the Koch brothers tell them to do. Follow the money.

No Snyder is a coward , he would of signed the bill outta the sight of the public. He wont sign it now, not after this tragedy.

You mean like the arrogant administration that lied to us about the cost of Obamacare, saying the cost was going to be $900 billion and is now $1.7 trillion, according to the CBO? The same admin. that actually locked out Republicans during negotiations?. The same admin. that passed the bill without any Republican "yes" votes? The same admin. that passed a bill that 60% of the country did not want? Or, are you talking about the admin. that changed the wording in the welfare law regarding the work requirement knowing full well that what he did was illegal, according to the GAO? Or are you talking about the admin. that fired a CEO of a company (GM) that is illegal? Or are you talking about the admin. that is bought and paid for by Geo. Soros, a socialist and is supported by every communist and socialist party here in the U.S. and around the world?

Thank you, excellent article to reference. Hope everyone in the discussion reads it!

Never let a good crisis go to waist eh Howard. You are sick, these are terrible things. We should all be mourning the loss of life these events have taken. Not pushing an emotion based agenda for your own satisfaction.

I agree with you, Howard. Let the emotion die down and so will this issue just like after the last unthinkable, terrible massive shooting.

“Since 1982, there have been at least 61 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii,” they found. And in most cases, the killers had obtained their weapons legally." Excerpt from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/?h

You bring up something very interesting an attack on 20 students with a knife since guns are not in the hands of civilians in China, NOBODY DIED NOBODY DIED
Thanks for making that point

Most NRA members are for backround checks and are open to regulation of high capacity clips. It is the leadership of the NRA that are fanatics and outta control.

Lana, "Why are the gun advocates always so loud and the rest of us silent?" Mayor Bloomberg has already started to become loud---it's just beginning. My belief is it's not the guns, but the people with them that is the problem. There is a saying "65 million legal gun owners didn't kill anyone today." There's more legal owners than illegal owners---but some of those illegal owners are evil. (It appears that the 20 year old that did the killing was autistic and took the guns from his mother.) I also think tragedies that are happening today that didn't happen 30, 40, 50 years ago is because god was taken out of schools, we were made to believe that everything is society's fault, we're not not responsible for our own actions, and the violence on TV and movies. Believe me, I'm no bible thumping preacher---far from it. But, when a society gets hammered everyday that it is ok to be immoral, unethical,uncaring, and selfish, bad things will happen---and more often. I don't expect things will get any better in the near future, either.

The shooters mother was a teacher at the school, she had a gun, in fact she had 2 guns, the ones that killed the her and 26 more.

yea more guns, genius

You know since so many people have pointed out that if the teachers had guns this wouldn't have happened I have a proposal. Schools could get a special accreditation. They could get a little cowboy hat on the door with the slogan "this school carries" All the teachers would have to take special fire arm classes, like how to stop a semi-automatic attack. Then after they get gun permits they could mount a semi-automatic on each end of the classroom (out of reach of the kids of course) since they would have to get in the 1st shot, kind of pointless otherwise.

That is so stupid! Most teachers want nothing to do with guns! Next you'll be suggesting that an education degree include a gun class and the continueing certificate require monthly practice! Yahoo!

Dorothy,
Teachers aren't paid? That is terrible. Why would they even show up for work?

Ditto Michele!!!

actually we know Clintons assault weapons ban was effective in preventing the large carnage of these kinda attacks. That is the first law that needs to be put back in effect. There doesnt have to be any debate or planning, just pass it again.

The Clinton AWB was incredibly ineffective. It outlawed certain combinations of "scary features" of semi-automatic rifles. I bought my first AR15 in the middle of the AWB. And it never has, and never will, be used to kill an innocent person.

Howard Berkowitz is very misinformed.

The part of the ban I really am concerned with is the high capacity mags, not so much the weapons themselves,,but I have no problem with the entire package.

RIGHT ON Michele! your comments hit the nail on the head. Did you read about the KC football team and their idea to wear a patch honoring the idiot that shot his wife and then himself? They see the shooting as the GUNS fault, not the bonehead with his finger on the trigger, having an illegitimate kid, two girlfriends (maybe more), heavy drinking and partying, etc. Maybe we should outlaw booze again? sheesh.....

from Wiki:

A 2004 critical review of research on firearms by a National Research Council panel also noted that academic studies of the assault weapon ban "did not reveal any clear impacts on gun violence" and noted "due to the fact that the relative rarity with which the banned guns were used in crime before the ban ... the maximum potential effect of the ban on gun violence outcomes would be very small...."

The United States Department of Justice National Institute of Justice found should the ban be renewed, its effects on gun violence would likely be small, and perhaps too small for reliable measurement, because rifles in general, including rifles referred to as "assault rifles" or "assault weapons", are rarely used in gun crimes

Patricia, they are not explicitly attempting to put guns in those places. The bill is to streamline things for legal concealed carriers. As it is now, I can carry concealed at all kinds of places, around any type of person. But if I want to go into a school, daycare center, movie theater, sports arena, bar, tavern, restaurant, hospital, or church I have to either 1) disarm, or 2) CARRY MY GUN OPENLY. If I disarm, that means I have to leave my pistol somewhere (a car most likely) where it can be stolen. If I carry openly, people with delicate sensibilities get scared. Why can't I just carry the darned thing like I do everywhere else?

Additionally, any privately owned facility of the type just listed is allowed to prohibit concealed carry on their property.

Please don't let the anti-gun media shape your opinion.

Bottle caps can ( and were ) thrown onto the court. A player can slip and be injured. That IS WHY they are banned. I won't comment anymore about this as it would senseless to discuss this with anyone that this to a shooting.

I am not anti gun, I made my living for 5 years working gunshows, selling nightvision, laser sights, holsters,shooting bags and holsters.

Most people in the mainstream want sensible gun control, we are not anti gun we are anti stupid.

80% of people that acquire a permit to carry, carry for 2 weeks then lock it back up at home and never carry it, too much trouble.

I can carry, but what for I am 59 years old and never had any trouble and I have been going into Detroit almost daily my entire life.

In the last 20 years gun laws have put more guns in the hands of legal owners and you see what we are getting. High capacity clips are not needed for personal protection, they need to be banned.

The incidents like this a far far less in those countrys. Yesterday in China there was an attack on 20 kids with a knife cause there are no guns. NOBODY DIED

Joshua, the information is not clear just yet, but the last few mass shooting have a common theme of mental illness. I think that is being ignored. Jared Loughner, Anders Breivik, James Holmes all had serious mental issues that were not addressed. I really think that needs to be part of the conversation. This is not a black and white issue.

Lianne, I'm not saying that mental illness shouldn't be addressed. However, unfounded speculation that this killer acted as he did because of Aspergers, being a goth or nerd, or some unnamed "personality disorder" is not the same as addressing mental illness, but only serves to incite fear against a group of individuals.

Joshua and Lianne - you both make excellent points. No question these events will, and should, lead to a broader discussion of mental health issues/care (or lack thereof) in the context of violent crime.

Joshua - more to your point, I meant to mention that yes, we must be careful not to draw too broad a stroke when labeling or categorizing disorders, or what people are capable of with such diagnoses. Right now, we don't know much at all about the perpetrator in CT.

I guess my issue is, how do we keep weapons away and out of the hand of the mentally ill? The NRA has got to be part of this conversation. Guns are not going away in America, that much is clear to me.

I have not made one personal attack but almost everyone of you gun advocates have.

So it is pretty clear but they have not reported it exactly, that he left the rifle in the car and used the handguns. Never once did I say or imply automatic weapons.
But we know he squeezed off about 100 rounds in a very short period of time, that tells me he most likely had highcapacity mags.

You can go to Ohio and INdiana guns shows and buy handguns in the isles with no paperwork what so ever, it has been reported that about 40% of all handguns are bought in this or a similar matter. No need for that, no need for highcapacity mags.
I have personaly bought hand guns in this matter, once from an Indian police officer, perfectly legal at the time and I think it still is.

I am not anti gun at all I think most gun nuts are buying too many thinking they are going to fight the government lol. The government is about 20 years ahead of what private people have and private people would be no match what so ever against the government.

There are many things we can do to control guns in a way that reduces these crazy mass killings and still protect the right of people to buy as many guns as they like and bury them in their backyards lol. That is where I stand on gun control, I am not anti gun.

Berkowitz, when it comes time to defend myself, my friends, or my family from a determined attacker, I want the biggest, most powerful, highest capacity firearm I can get my hands on. And so should you, if you have half a brain.

I haven't read that he used high-capacity mags or a count of casings. Does anyone have a reference?

Howard and Steve - here is the data on the "40% of gun sales do not involve a background check" (due to gun show loop hole and internet and other personal sales)
This is a good explantion of where the data comes from-
"Mayor Michael Bloomberg says 40 percent of guns are sold without a background check"
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/25/michael-bloomberg/mayor-michael-bloomberg-says-40-percent-guns-are-s/

Steve - easy on the name-calling."Liar" is pretty strong - especially when there is empirical data supporting some of Mr. Berkowitz's assertions.

"Gun Owners Surveyed By Frank Luntz Express Broad Support For Gun Control Policies"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/gun-owners-frank-luntz_n_1699140.html?1343154409
NOTE: Frank Lutz is THE GOP pollster, wordsmith and a main go-to guy for Marketing/Branding for (R) candidates.
- some of the above article written in wake of Aurora, here:
"The study, which was conducted in May by GOP wordsmith Frank Luntz, revealed the following data points as well:
•74 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.
•68 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.
•63 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.
•75 percent of NRA members believe that concealed carry permits should be granted only to those applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors.

Taken in full, the numbers cut against the conventional wisdom, which holds that there is little political will for tackling gun control legislation in the wake of Friday's shooting in Aurora, Colo. But that theory, the study's authors insisted, was always based on a false reading of the public opinion data."

Continued -
Ooops, left out a most important part of above study:
"82 percent of 945 self-identified gun owners said they support requiring criminal background checks for gun purchasers. The sample was divided evenly between gun owners who were current or lapsed members of the NRA and non-NRA gun owners. 74 percent of the NRA members said they support the background checks."

That in mind, why is it that the NRA pushed hard this week to pass another Michigan gun bill that would have REPEALED a state law mandating all handgun buyers pass a background check program run by the Michigan State Police, designed to block felons, domestic abusers and the severely mentally ill from obtaining a handgun license."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/michigan-gun-bill-nra-background-checks_n_2295413.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

"The alternate bill that DID pass the Michigan Senate eases the existing regulations on handgun licensing in several ways, most notably by repealing a mandatory handgun safety test required to obtain a permit."

John Fedricks you couldn't be more wrong. I go to gun ranges and events where everyone is carrying a pistol, and everyone is on their best behavior. An armed society is a polite society.

And FWIW, Snyder works with all kinds of people who are armed. They are known as the police. Your average LEO is, on average, no better and no worse than your average law-abiding citizen. Folks who obtain the CPL are definitely above-average citizens.

Coleen, read my post above taken from Wiki, RARELY are rifles used in committing a crime, to the point of almost being immeasurable! Think about it for a while, public morality, social media, violent movies and video games, both parents away from home working in a lot of instances. Go check out the vile language on Twitter some day, people are NASTY to each other these days, and I'm afraid it won't be better anytime soon. Did you ever see the movie "No Country for Old Men?" I'm 52, and I can't believe what is going on right now with peoples' attitudes, and our presidents' class warfare and divisiveness only add to the problem. We're going to need an intelligent, strong leader one day to even think about getting us out of this mess. There's a lot we'll never know about the incident in Ct, do a google search for the Mother of the gunman regarding the former CIA operative and comments regarding her clandestine work on psy/ops, that would explain the gun arsenal that she owned, standard CIA issue equipment. The problem is that her kid got his hands on it and we'll never hear the REAL story. Now they say the kids were all killed with a rifle, and there was a rifle still in the car, second shooter?

"I can't think of any reason to have concealed weapons in a school!"

Then Colleen you are not a very thoughtful person. If a school employee had been legally allowed to carry a weapon, and that employee was there and armed and was motivated, that employee could have taken action and maybe one or two or who knows how many families would not be planning funerals right now. Your reasoning is exactly the kind of thinking that makes schools into criminal empowerment zones.

See here for an encouraging story about a recent crazed gunman:

http://thegunwire.com/blog/youtube-video-clackamas-mall-shooter-was-confonted-by-concealed-carrier-oregon/

Col. Duke Lacrosse... please post a comment at...

Rochester Patch... Guns Aren't Going Anywhere
http://rochester.patch.com/blog_posts/guns-arent-going-anywhere

I welcome all comments... Rochester Patch, my heart and prayers go out to all those who lives will forever change because of gun violence... It's never to late to have a civil discussion on how to protect our children in school.

Colleen,

I dont think we have to worry now about Snyder signing that harmful rightwing bill. He would only do it if the spotlight was not on this issue. One good thing that will come out of this horrendous tragedy.

Today at the gunshows there were long lines from the "polite" gun nut crowd buying these high capacity clips, knowing that soon they wont be able to buy them. These people are so "polite" they couldnt wait till the bodies of these children are in the ground before they rushed the gun shows to buy the very items that put these children on the way to their graves.

Thank god we have a President that is going to take action on this issue and try to protect all our children.

All my children and all my freinds and relatives have values and morals. I dont know what kinda crowd you run with.

There is no reason for high capacity mags. The same day of this tragedy an attack in China on 20 school children caused no death, why no guns. So give me a break with this has nothing to do with gun control. You can make the point we just have to put up with these tragedies, cause it is so important to our society that everyone no matter who they are, needs to have access to guns and high capacity mags. To say it has nothing to do with gun control or the lack of it is rediculous.

If anything the children of today have better values and morals. You can just look at their attitudes towards racism, gay people and woman's rights to see they are more tolerant of others than people of older generations.

Better look out the window to see if you can yell at anyone for walking on your lawn.

Howie, making it legal to kill children makes it less likely to kill children? Your nuts! Treat unborn children like garbage and its easier to treat all children like that!

Frank, you can look for all the root causes you want, but they won't be solved. There's mental problems, poverty problems, moral problems, divorces, domestic abuse, selfishness, drug use, hypersensitivity, idle time, entitlement, religious extremism, prejudice, ignorance, and too many longer on emotion than reason.

Until we live in a perfect world, or leave this one for one that is perfect, each individual must decide if they'r willing to give their life, and the lives of their family or others they care for, to an anomaly breaking into an elementary, a theater, or a temple.

Personally, I don't think my family should be sacrificed at the alter of naivete, denial, delusion, and wishful thinking.

Our hypocracy is unlimited. If even one adult in the school were able to eliminate or slow Mr. Lanzo, they'd be celebrated today as a hero, fewer families may have been broken. Fewer children may have been lost.

That is what I would hope if evil ever visited my sons' schools.

Mr. Trudeau, like many others, misunderstand the constitution and the 2nd amendment. The right to possess a firearm isn't given by the government in the 2nd amendment. The right to defend yourself is a natural right presupposed by the constitution, partially reiterated in the 2nd, underscored by the 9th, and was (according to The Atlantic) behind the composition of the 14th.

I agree with you Frank D. There are two concurrent streams of error occurring before our eyes. The first is the result of generations with no parents to speak of and the second is the mentally ill! Chicago is the result of the first - they are up to 488 murders, mostly young, this year - with 40 killed in one three day period earlier this year. The second is truly shown in your article reference. Political Correctness by those who lead with their hearts instead of their brains is slowly destroying our civil society! When the right thing to do is constantly obstructed by those who think they know what is best for you in spite of the shear logic of your position, our world is turning upside down. In light of those who perpetrate both the Chicago and Newtown types of violence we need to first protect ourselves and our loved ones. That means using the police where possible and using whatever defense is available when the police are out of reach.

Just one of them Erin.

Lianne - you're right - 2 "streamlining the permit process" bills were signed today. I'll have to read those. I'm on a Snyder phone "town hall right" now.

I agree with you 100%. I wish more people would sit back, think get the REAL facts before shooting their mouths off about something they know nothing about.

All good points Joel! The interactive chart you highlight shows Washington D.C. as having the highest homicide rate. Interesting, considering how difficult it is for a citizen to have a gun for protection there. Regarding schools as gun free zones here is an article that summerizes well I think the points many, including myself, believe!
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=215107

This time the ban is going to have real teeth, like the one in Australia that sent these crimes plummeting.

About 40% of guns bought are bought without backround checks in Gun show like loopholes.

I worked Gun shows for 5 years, I bought guns in the isles manytimes with no paperwork. There is no reason for this. I dont know how you can measure that only 2% of felons got there guns at the gun show, when there is no papertrail lol. That sentence has no measurable meaning anyhow. You mean of all felons only 2% got guns at the gunshow, even the ones not seeking guns lol. What kinda stat is that? lol We are going to go ahead with a real sensible gun saftey bill and all the twisted stats are not going to change it. This one is different.

I'm curious in the 2% stat as well. Here's a report from UC Davis that includes the stat and attempts to explain it. I haven't read the report yet so can't summarize it.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/pdf/IGS/IGSexecsummweb.pdf

I didnt say I had many guns I said I had bought many guns. I said I worked gun shows I didnt say only Michigan gunshows. When I first started doing it about 92 I believe they were still swapping guns in the isles of the gun shows in Michigan too. I worked gun shows also in Indiana, Ohio, Pa, Tennessee and Fla. I have one shot gun not loaded in my home.

If you had two son's and one received a BB Gun from his grandpa and a year later he shot the eye out of the other son, would your solution be to bring in another BB gun lol?

There have been armed persons at many of these mass shootings including Columbine. It is not the answer. The answer is common sense gun laws. No reason for high capacity clips and assaults weapons . You guys are not going to fight the government and if you had to in some fantasy, you would lose,,the government could fight you from an air conditioned office sending drones to destroy your homes.

Staliln is dead so is Hitler you are not going to fight them lol Wake up.

This time is different, we will get sensible gun laws that will decrease these fatalities just they did in Australia.