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Should Snyder Sign Bill Allowing Concealed Weapons in Schools?

On Friday, a gunman killed at least 27 at a school in Newtown, CT. Meanwhile in Michigan, Gov. Snyder has a bill on his desk that would allow some concealed guns in schools. What do you think?

Should Michigan's governor sign a bill on is desk that would allow concealed weapons in former no-gun zones, like schools?

The question is timely:

  • Under legislation that passed the House and Senate in Michigan this week, gun owners with concealed weapon permits could carry a gun into schools, daycares, hospitals or public arenas if they get extra training. The bill is awaiting Gov. Rick Snyder's signature, according to MLive.
  • And on Friday, a gunman opened fire in a school in Newtown, CT, .

What do you think of the legislation? Should the governor sign it?

Frank D. December 16, 2012 at 01:35 PM
This thread is nothing but an emotional side show... The real discussion should focus on the real "root cause" of these kind of tragedies...to give you a tip...this "autistic" kid had issues, apparently his mother ended up home schooling him...Nancy Lanza ( his mother) pulled him from the school as she was unhappy with the school district plans for her son... She continued to have battles with the school system...Why is this not getting further explored...What is the root cause of our society without values and morality... Just look around, a lot of today's kids are a product of this environment.. Just review all these past school shooting event for the causal factors..! Has nothing to do with gun control..Alas the OP of this article feels differently... My prayers and love for all the affected parents and families...may the spiritual presence of these Angels guide them...
Char Kruse December 16, 2012 at 01:47 PM
well put Frank!
Howard Berkowitz December 16, 2012 at 02:16 PM
All my children and all my freinds and relatives have values and morals. I dont know what kinda crowd you run with. There is no reason for high capacity mags. The same day of this tragedy an attack in China on 20 school children caused no death, why no guns. So give me a break with this has nothing to do with gun control. You can make the point we just have to put up with these tragedies, cause it is so important to our society that everyone no matter who they are, needs to have access to guns and high capacity mags. To say it has nothing to do with gun control or the lack of it is rediculous. If anything the children of today have better values and morals. You can just look at their attitudes towards racism, gay people and woman's rights to see they are more tolerant of others than people of older generations. Better look out the window to see if you can yell at anyone for walking on your lawn.
Hughes December 16, 2012 at 03:12 PM
Howie, making it legal to kill children makes it less likely to kill children? Your nuts! Treat unborn children like garbage and its easier to treat all children like that!
Thomas Gagne December 16, 2012 at 03:19 PM
Frank, you can look for all the root causes you want, but they won't be solved. There's mental problems, poverty problems, moral problems, divorces, domestic abuse, selfishness, drug use, hypersensitivity, idle time, entitlement, religious extremism, prejudice, ignorance, and too many longer on emotion than reason. Until we live in a perfect world, or leave this one for one that is perfect, each individual must decide if they'r willing to give their life, and the lives of their family or others they care for, to an anomaly breaking into an elementary, a theater, or a temple. Personally, I don't think my family should be sacrificed at the alter of naivete, denial, delusion, and wishful thinking. Our hypocracy is unlimited. If even one adult in the school were able to eliminate or slow Mr. Lanzo, they'd be celebrated today as a hero, fewer families may have been broken. Fewer children may have been lost. That is what I would hope if evil ever visited my sons' schools.
Al Trudeau December 16, 2012 at 03:21 PM
Governor Snyder, no question about it - - VETO THAT BILL!!! It is time - - no, LONG PAST TIME - - to put the emphasis where it REALLY belongs -- on the FIRST CLAUSE of the Second Amendment --- that guns really belong in "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA" and NOT in the hands of every damfool idiot who just wants to get his hands on them!! Al Trudeau, Oakland Township
Thomas Gagne December 16, 2012 at 03:27 PM
Mr. Trudeau, like many others, misunderstand the constitution and the 2nd amendment. The right to possess a firearm isn't given by the government in the 2nd amendment. The right to defend yourself is a natural right presupposed by the constitution, partially reiterated in the 2nd, underscored by the 9th, and was (according to The Atlantic) behind the composition of the 14th.
Al Trudeau December 16, 2012 at 04:23 PM
I couldn't care less who presupposed, partially reiterated or underscored what! All I know is that something needs to be done to minimize this senseless slaughter that recurs regularly in our society and effective gun control is one positive step in that direction Al Trudeau, Oakland Twp
Frank D. December 16, 2012 at 05:09 PM
Effective gun control like in Norway...and I am sure you know what happen there as well. How about addressing the mind set of these perpetrators...how about addressing our societal challenges..Special education for special needs, family values, TV and alike violences where guns seems to resolve everything..(Friday 10 people got shot in Chicago, etc..) Suggest you also read this http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother
FCF December 16, 2012 at 06:02 PM
I agree with you Frank D. There are two concurrent streams of error occurring before our eyes. The first is the result of generations with no parents to speak of and the second is the mentally ill! Chicago is the result of the first - they are up to 488 murders, mostly young, this year - with 40 killed in one three day period earlier this year. The second is truly shown in your article reference. Political Correctness by those who lead with their hearts instead of their brains is slowly destroying our civil society! When the right thing to do is constantly obstructed by those who think they know what is best for you in spite of the shear logic of your position, our world is turning upside down. In light of those who perpetrate both the Chicago and Newtown types of violence we need to first protect ourselves and our loved ones. That means using the police where possible and using whatever defense is available when the police are out of reach.
Howard Berkowitz December 17, 2012 at 02:39 AM
Colleen, I dont think we have to worry now about Snyder signing that harmful rightwing bill. He would only do it if the spotlight was not on this issue. One good thing that will come out of this horrendous tragedy. Today at the gunshows there were long lines from the "polite" gun nut crowd buying these high capacity clips, knowing that soon they wont be able to buy them. These people are so "polite" they couldnt wait till the bodies of these children are in the ground before they rushed the gun shows to buy the very items that put these children on the way to their graves. Thank god we have a President that is going to take action on this issue and try to protect all our children.
Erin December 18, 2012 at 09:04 PM
Tues 12/18 - Breaking News: Snyder Vetoes Gun Bill
Lianne Mathie December 18, 2012 at 10:24 PM
Just one of them Erin.
Erin December 18, 2012 at 11:05 PM
Lianne - you're right - 2 "streamlining the permit process" bills were signed today. I'll have to read those. I'm on a Snyder phone "town hall right" now.
Erin December 18, 2012 at 11:52 PM
Lianne - okay, saw one that passed and signed - and I think it's a good one - a bill that requires the Michigan State Police, rather than local law enforcement, to maintain gun-permitting records. Police said it was crucial to have at least one agency hold on to records, citing the I-96 corridor shooter case last month, which was solved in part by going back through gun records. I think the second one is HB 5225 which "•Repeals the requirement to register a completely legally purchased and owned firearm by a law-abiding citizen to be registered with the government through the police." Does anyone know if this is one of the gun laws signed by Snyder this week. If not, what is it? All the press is mostly on concealed carry.
FCF December 19, 2012 at 12:20 AM
Whew!!! Oh! In case you're wondering that is the expression all the future bad guys and crazies are expressing as they agree with the Gov's veto!!! What's worse is the revise if the legislature grants his request by adjusting for his objection will be worse! As it will have an "opt out" provision which will be just like the sign in the Aurora, CO. theater! Bad guys with guns have no fear - no guns here! Good article if anyone wants to deal with facts: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335739/facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fund
joel heller December 20, 2012 at 09:22 AM
Good link FCF. Governor Snyder has been dealing with various threats to him and his family over the recent "right to work legislation". The risk of adding his name to the list of those being threatened with physical harm including death by a militant faction of the anti gun crowd may have been a bit too much for him. One must wonder if the hatred espoused by this sub group could pose real danger. Does their hatred of guns and of those who believe there is nothing wrong with the 2nd Amendment as it is written preclude these anti gunners from having guns themselves? At least one leader of the broader anti-gun movement, Diane Feinstein, owns guns, has a very hard to get California Concealed Pistol Permit, and a healthy contingent of well armed guards. She believes others would be safer without their guns. The link from FCF we are reminded that the chance of being involved in a mass shooting in the US is about the same as that of being struck by lightning. If we wish, and I know we all do, too make these events even less likely, there are measures that WILL do it. There are measures that will not. I must again refer to the link above. “With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.
joel heller December 20, 2012 at 09:22 AM
Any person or group who invokes Sandy Hook to push any agenda that can not be shown, through the use of proven facts and clear logic, to reduce the chances of it ever happening again, may be well meaning, but is non the less, part of the problem.
Steve Clarke December 20, 2012 at 05:29 PM
I agree with you 100%. I wish more people would sit back, think get the REAL facts before shooting their mouths off about something they know nothing about.
joel heller December 21, 2012 at 07:21 AM
Having read all the comments, the majority of responses pertain to the horrible emotional impact of the Sandy Hook Massacre. Some of the respondents have engaged in the "I'm hurting worse than you " battle. As if the idea that the more you hurt, the more valuable your solution becomes. The President has promised legislation in January. As if more laws are the answer to any problem. Any proposed legislation must begin with a clear statement of purpose of what exactly is expected to improve when the thousands of pages that make up a bill are voted on. A sunset date is then included. If the stated purpose is not met by that date, the entire bill expires. Another expensive failure. The Clinton "assault" weapon and high capacity (10 round limit) magazine ban was in effect for ten years. During that period, from 1994 through 2004 there were no significant changes in any gun crime statistical trends. There should be a statement of purpose on all proposed bills. How else can we measure effectiveness? Gun crime has slowly but steadily been going down year by year since it peaked in the mid 80's. This year, for the first time ever, homicide (all causes) failed to make the top 15 causes of death list for the US. http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/top-15-causes-of-death. About 3% of the 12,000 or so annual homicides are by all rifles, of which assault (style) rifles are a small subset. About 2% of felons got their guns at a gun show.
FCF December 21, 2012 at 07:32 AM
All good points Joel! The interactive chart you highlight shows Washington D.C. as having the highest homicide rate. Interesting, considering how difficult it is for a citizen to have a gun for protection there. Regarding schools as gun free zones here is an article that summerizes well I think the points many, including myself, believe! http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=215107
joel heller December 21, 2012 at 08:00 AM
Precisely FCF. When you overlay the maps of homicides with those showing the degree of gun control on the law abiding, the maps are pretty much the same! Of course the "even good people can't be trusted with guns" crowd will say the restrictions were because the high crime ALREADY existed in these places. In fact, this IS usually the case. The point is clear. As the well meaning but uninformed sought to fight violent crime with ever more (anti) gun laws, the homicide rates INCREASED proportionality. The "cure" considerably worsened the disease.
joel heller December 21, 2012 at 08:35 AM
By the way, FCF, that piece from market-ticker is truly superlative. Of all the stuff I've read following Sandy Hook, this is the one best captures the "big picture". If big media had any interest in "balanced coverage", they would run this piece. Anyone interested in finding real answers to the problems surrounding the tragedy, should include this piece in their studies.
Howard Berkowitz December 21, 2012 at 01:46 PM
This time the ban is going to have real teeth, like the one in Australia that sent these crimes plummeting. About 40% of guns bought are bought without backround checks in Gun show like loopholes. I worked Gun shows for 5 years, I bought guns in the isles manytimes with no paperwork. There is no reason for this. I dont know how you can measure that only 2% of felons got there guns at the gun show, when there is no papertrail lol. That sentence has no measurable meaning anyhow. You mean of all felons only 2% got guns at the gunshow, even the ones not seeking guns lol. What kinda stat is that? lol We are going to go ahead with a real sensible gun saftey bill and all the twisted stats are not going to change it. This one is different.
Thomas Gagne December 21, 2012 at 02:26 PM
I'm curious in the 2% stat as well. Here's a report from UC Davis that includes the stat and attempts to explain it. I haven't read the report yet so can't summarize it. http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/pdf/IGS/IGSexecsummweb.pdf
joel heller December 22, 2012 at 08:15 AM
The link from Mr Gagne was to an article written by Garen Wintemute, MD, MPH Violence Prevention Research Program. Many gun blame groups use the term "violence prevention" in their headers. As if all violence is bad. When evil people, groups or nations use violence to attain their goals, a superior level of violence is needed to turn them back. Let's make this perfectly clear. Guns and violence are tools. The article does use the correct figure for gun shows as the source for guns in the possession for felons, Which is 2%. Howard's quote "40% of guns bought are bought without backround checks" comes from where? Backround checks aren't for everybody. Did you mean background? Howard hates guns and gun shows, yet he "bought guns in the isles many times with no paperwork" In MI private (no background check) sales of guns have not been allowed at any of the gun shows I've been to for many years. I find it odd that a man with such a strong revulsion to guns, has bought so many. Howard, if you were somehow there at Sandy Hook, with one of your many guns, would you have used violence to stop evil?
FCF December 22, 2012 at 11:57 AM
Joel, good investigation! With the "Lions and Tigers and Bears Oh, My!" crowd complaining about the NRA advice and commitment to help with the implementation of armed security in our schools we should remember that Bubba did it back in 2000! http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/16/news/mn-20323 Further, the NRA advised these security personnel could come from retired police or vets and be either paid or volunteer and who would receive training and certification - although you will not hear that particular description from the anti-gun crowd - who dismiss it as "Police, why that would be too expensive and take them off the streets!" And Remember Columbine! Here is another good article! http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/12/21/this-post-is-going-to-be-very-confusing-to-some-people/
Howard Berkowitz December 22, 2012 at 01:08 PM
I didnt say I had many guns I said I had bought many guns. I said I worked gun shows I didnt say only Michigan gunshows. When I first started doing it about 92 I believe they were still swapping guns in the isles of the gun shows in Michigan too. I worked gun shows also in Indiana, Ohio, Pa, Tennessee and Fla. I have one shot gun not loaded in my home. If you had two son's and one received a BB Gun from his grandpa and a year later he shot the eye out of the other son, would your solution be to bring in another BB gun lol? There have been armed persons at many of these mass shootings including Columbine. It is not the answer. The answer is common sense gun laws. No reason for high capacity clips and assaults weapons . You guys are not going to fight the government and if you had to in some fantasy, you would lose,,the government could fight you from an air conditioned office sending drones to destroy your homes. Staliln is dead so is Hitler you are not going to fight them lol Wake up. This time is different, we will get sensible gun laws that will decrease these fatalities just they did in Australia.
joel heller December 23, 2012 at 07:59 AM
"WASHINGTON — Marking the first anniversary of the shooting deaths at Columbine High School, President Clinton announced $120 million in new federal grants Saturday to place more police officers in schools". FCF's fist link covers the details. Bill and Hilary proposed this in April of 2002. This was eight years into the Clinton "assault rifle/ high capacity magazine ban" and three years after Columbine. When the Columbine massacre happened in 1999 they realized the need.. In 2003, the now obviously ineffective Clinton ban was allowed to expire. The 2nd FCF link points out "The NRA proposed a similar " officers in schools " plan on Friday , in response to Sandy Hook. The article goes on to say "Barack Obama cut the funding for the Clinton era version of the same " cops in schools" program, presumably in his first term. Is this way there was not even one policeman on duty at Sandy Hook.? .
joel heller December 23, 2012 at 07:59 AM
Perhaps Howard will provide an accuracy check on the above. If funds for school security were not cut, might Sandy Hook have been avoided? Is the answer to lowering the risk of another Columbine or Sandy Hook more school security? One thing is certain, Columbine occurred when the Clinton "assault rifle/ high capacity magazine ban" had been in effect for years. What can be said of those who propose reviving some version of a failed plan to make our schools safer? Do they believe in the absence of all fact and logic that they are right? Do they hate guns so completely as to be blind to the facts and logic? Worse yet, some may believe these periodic tragedies are the price to be paid to rid society of as many guns as possible, from the law abiding, the criminal and the lunatic alike. By the way, Howard, sorry to hear you are down to one gun. Would you use it to save your own life?

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